Collin: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast, Colin here. As always, I'm joined by, uh, Joel, hey Joel, hey, uh, this week we have a really special guest, uh, Ethan Marcotte, who just wrote a really great book, uh, that I, that I read the entire thing in the last week. called, uh, You Deserve a Tech Union, which is a really interesting topic that I'd been thinking about. And then, uh, somebody messaged me on Mastodon and was like, Hey, this book just came out. You should, you should get in touch with this guy. And I, I did. And, uh, you've been kind enough to join us. So Ethan, uh, how, how's it going?

Ethan: 0:35

Yeah, Colin, good. It's really nice to be here. Really nice to meet you and Joel. and uh, yeah, just thanks for having me on the show.

Collin: 0:41

Yeah. So, well, thanks for coming. Um, so maybe we could start out with. Can you just give us like a brief overview of the book and then we can get into specifics as we go?

Ethan: 0:52

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so the book is called You Deserve a Tech union It just came out, man, I think almost a month ago now. Um, that's, it's been a blurry four weeks. Um, but, uh, the book's basically a short 150 page ish look at why I think unions are needed in The tech industry. And not just that, but sort of overlooking at how, you know, there's a labor movement in the tech industry now, like, unions aren't some hypothetical thing. Um, there are. Unions forming at, uh, companies like Google, uh, like Apple, uh, Kickstarter. I mean, you know, a couple brands you've heard of how workers have banded together to form unions to and get a better version of tech work in place at their workplaces. Um, I wanted to write about that and... I think we need a lot more of it,

Collin: 1:45

So when did you, uh, when did you first start thinking about unions and labor?

Ethan: 1:50

man. Uh, that goes back a ways. Um, I mean, I didn't grow up in a union family. And in fact, that was the thread that I kind of shared with all the people that I interviewed for the book, you know, so many tech workers who didn't really have a direct connection to organized labor in history. Um, one or two folks like grew up in a union household where they're. Their mother might have been in a union or their, uh, their father might have been in a union. But, but by and large, uh, you know, folks kind of like felt tech work was somehow different. Um, but I mean, unions were something I always cared about. Like I received health care from union members. I was taught by union members. And it was just something that I abstractly understood was a good thing. But I started realizing that unions actually have a real role to play in tech. Um, probably within the last decade, I've been writing and speaking about labor unions. And labor issues in tech for a little while now, um, which feels new to me because Some folks in your audience might know I coined the term responsive design it's like why is the css guy suddenly getting excited about organized labor, but I think for me like it really kind of crystallized back in 2018 where i've been sort of like thinking about this for a while and also watching a lot of like worker led activism sort of materialize in the tech industry One of the big heavy beats for me was in 2018 during the Google walkouts where you had 20, 000 tech workers stepping away from their desks and walking into the streets, um, asking for some substantive change at work, some pretty significant changes at work. I just never really seen anything like that before in tech. And I think that's, that at least for me was like, where it really translated from, this is something I'm excited about and care about to I want to write about why this is important to me and why I think this is important to the industry.

Collin: 3:42

Yeah, I think you said, uh, in the book that, like, sometimes you're feeling a little bummed out or whatever. You'll just watch that

Ethan: 3:50

Yeah. I'm real fun at parties, but yeah, there's a, the clips from the walkouts, you can still find them available online. I mean, they are, they're remarkable. I mean, it's, it's just like the numbers of people just like flowing out of Google's offices around the world is something to see, but then you can find, you can still find, uh, On Twitter, um, you know, or whatever it's called these days. Um, really wonderful photos and video footage and testimonials from people who were there standing up for their coworkers. It's still, it's still, it's incredibly moving still today.

Collin: 4:25

Yeah, absolutely. And not just like the developers and designers. You talk a lot about how, for example, the people who scan pages into Google Books or whatever, like, They are also tech workers. They're also there. They're all, you know, we also have a responsibility to them. I thought about that like, when I worked at Apple, how all the people who, like, run Cafe Max, all the people who do security and all that kind of stuff that you're around all day, like, those are all contract workers as well.

Ethan: 4:58

Yeah, man, I'm so glad you called that out. I mean, the end of the book, yeah, it does try to expand the definition of who gets to be a tech worker, because I think this is something that I've noticed over the last few years, not many, many people have written about this, but like, the tech industry in general is really good at creating new classes of work and then making those workers invisible. lot of the advances we're seeing right now in like, uh, large language models. Like, uh, there was this story that came out about contractors in Africa, um, getting paid Like, dollars an hour to clean up output. Um, you know, to make it less racist, basically. I mean, we're subjecting people to incredibly precarious and in some cases traumatizing work. And without their labor, without their tech work, um, the industry isn't going to be able to produce any of these advances that it's currently really excited about. And I think that we need to reconcile ourselves to that, like that, that duality, that there's sort of two different kinds of tech work happening right now. For some of us as knowledge workers, for salaried knowledge, knowledge workers who've always, I think, felt... Some certain amount of privilege in our work. There's a real opportunity not just to organize our workplaces, but also to hopefully, you know, address some of these harms as well.

Collin: 6:13

I think you said they were, they were making, like, two dollars an hour in, uh, in africa. Um, and then on top of that, some of the people were, like, pretty scarred by what they had to interact with, and they were nominally supposed to be getting some kind of support for that, but like, in reality, not so much.

Ethan: 6:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, and there's been writing about moderation being incredibly traumatizing. Um, you know, so many, so many folks have written about this for years. Like back in 2014, there was a story about social media companies like Facebook and Twitter, basically offshoring content moderation to uh, companies in Southeast asia. And, I mean, if you've ever wondered, like, how you can get through most of a day online without seeing truly upsetting material, it's because there are actual people reviewing, uh, what's getting posted on these sites and taking them down if they violate the terms of service. So, um, again, I think there's, like, the tech industry relies on an incredible amount of just really precarious and precarious labor done by people and putting them in some really extreme and traumatizing working conditions.

Collin: 7:33

Yeah, I think if you've worked in tech, especially maybe at larger companies and things, over time you realize how much really manual labor there is in making all these things work. Like the large language model thing seems like a really good example of it, where we think it's like magic, um, but actually there's an insane amount of manual labor that goes into those.

Ethan: 7:55

Absolutely. I'm so glad you called that out. I mean, we, you know, there's a big push to kind of rebrand a lot of this tech is artificial intelligence, right? Which, which, which it is to an extent, but like that, that conceals just how much manual labor actually goes into creating these systems. Um, you know, everything from sanitizing the output, you know, from content moderators. To, um, you know, the actual people who are producing work that are being fed into these systems as training data. You know, this is a big, this is a big sticking point in The Hollywood strikes that are happening right now. Um, you know, so, um, yeah, it's, it's a neat marketing trick, uh, to call these things, uh, as being fully automated when they're, they're incredibly deeply reliant on, on people to do a lot of the work, power them,

Collin: 8:41

Expanding on the large language model thing, you mentioned a couple of things. My thought is, it's existed for such a short period of time, and these billionaire CEOs and stuff are just so excited, they're like, here's a new way we can just grind people into dust. It's so exciting for them. Uh, and, and you, you talk in the book about this idea, this is, okay, this was the scariest part of the book. This is like, freaked me out a little bit. You talked about this idea of de skilling and how that's what they want to do. Can you, can you talk about that? What

Ethan: 9:14

I'm glad you called that out. Um, and I'm sorry it scared you. Um, but if there's a, if I can offer some solidarity, it scares me too. Uh, so, so descaling is a term that I kind of discovered, you know, a couple of years ago when I first started working on the book, um, and it's this idea that, uh, it's a process by which human labor becomes less valuable over time and automation plays a big role in that because as an automated system gets introduced, let's say to a workplace. It doesn't necessarily need to be as good as human workers. It just kind of needs to be seen as quality wise, good enough. And it also just needs to be seen as less expensive by the folks who are running that workplace. So the de scaling basically happens because once the automation sort of enters the workplace, um, the, value of human labor goes down and that shifts the kind of work. That those human laborers are doing. Um, so, so I mentioned the Hollywood strikes before. Like the WGA, um, you know, mentioned the role of AI as being a sticking point in the contract negotiations. It's one of the reasons, one of the many reasons that they're going on strike. But, you know, there's a very real concern that if, let's say, chatGPT, for example, was being used to produce, um, a script treatment, or an outline for a new show or a new movie. That writers would then be hired to do kind of AI clean up tasks rather than the initial creation. And that's the de skilling process. Those are lower paid tasks because the initial output is kind of related, um, It's kind of like related to the technology specifically. So when we think about like automation, we think about jobs disappearing overnight. It's a much longer process, um, kind of eroding the value of our labor over time.

Collin: 10:58

It made me think of, uh, you know, with adding automation, how when You know, computers, the very, very early days of computers. I think I had heard at some point that like, they couldn't do math faster than a skilled person could at that time, but they could do it like, continuously. They could do it 24 hours a day, and so it completely, like, that job does not exist anymore of like, a calculator.

Ethan: 11:24

Yeah, there's a, there's a line that I love. It's like bankers love ATMs because they never need sick days or banks love ATMs because they never need sick days. Um, but, uh, yeah, there's, there's always a trade off. And I think like, um, in the book, I mentioned a few times this, this one woman who's a real inspiration to me Ursula Franklin, and she has this great line when talking about new technologies is not to ask, like, what are the benefits of a new technology or what are the costs of a new technology? But Who benefits and who pays the costs, right? It's like trying to center the people who are affected by these systems. And I think that that's something that I think we're, we're starting to do now more as an industry. And I also think that's something that organized labor can really help with. Um, because the union at least is, you know, I'm, I'm framing it in the book, you know, it gets to address issues of wages, benefits, and working conditions in the United States and. There's a long history of union contracts being used to address matters of automation in the workplace. Like how it's used, who it impacts, and, uh, you know, building protection for workers. And I think that's something that's really valuable.

Collin: 12:33

Yes, yeah, you go a lot into the, like, it's a very dense book. Like, it's not that long, but there's, there's a lot of information in there. Um, you go a lot into the history of unions in the United States. Some of them are, like, turn of the 19th to 20th century era around, like, textiles and things like that, I think. And then later on, though, you get into how in, like, the 60s, even, there was. you know, actual tech unions that we've just kind of forgotten about. So there's actually this long history of it.

Ethan: 13:06

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, tech in general, like, as an industry, like, putting labor aside for a second, like, tech has always kind of struggled with this concept of history, right? Because we're so focused on the new framework, the new technology, the next... You know what we're shipping in the next 12 to 18 months and it's hard to build time to like look back and sort of Recognize that we are part of a much longer context You know I come from more on the design side and it's it's kind of interesting to like have conversations every four or five years with like browser support and progressive enhancement and you know actually planning for accessibility and site performance and there's always like this pendulum swing about You know, moving away from those concepts and then, oh, everyone kind of rediscovers that they're kind of important. Um, and I, I think that, you know, when we're dealing with our moment now in, you know, in labor issues in the tech industry, I think it is helpful to recognize that we're kind of coming to these issues for the first time, but there's a long, long history that we can draw from and learn from, um, including, as you said, like organizing that's happening in the tech industry, uh, and has been for the last decade, mainly around more marginalized workers.

Collin: 14:14

Joel, do you have any thoughts on this? What are you thinking?

Joel: 14:18

So my question, is basically how do we balance the progress of technology, um, making, you know, So, uh, you use the example of a cash machine, um, cash machines make, like, are really convenient for people like me who want to withdraw cash, or even better would be, like, not having a cash machine and being able to pay, With a card or with a phone. So, or like, um, the calculator, right? Computers have made all of our lives so much better, I think, in many ways. Um, but they've put hundreds of thousands of people out of work at the same time. And, yes, they have possibly de skilled certain people, but they've also created entire categories of skills. Like, my entire category of skill was created by there being computers. So, how do we balance, like, The needs of people to reap the benefits of the technology we create with, like, the kind of knee jerk reaction of pushing back and being, like, No AI, no, like, advances in this new technology. Because I feel like that might not be in a very good long term plan, if that makes sense,

Ethan: 15:28

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's it's such a great question, Joel. I mean, I think like, um, it's too bad we only have an hour booked for this call because I think

Joel: 15:37

so...

Ethan: 15:38

no, no, no, it's it's a fantastic topic. And I'm so glad you asked that because it's like, but it's a it's a much like it's a much deeper topic than first of all, I'm equipped to answer. But second of all, like that's that's a That's a field of research. Um,

Joel: 15:50

Mm

Ethan: 15:51

I guess like I would start to give a bad answer to that very good question by like, I think it is a, like how we define progress is where I might start.

Joel: 16:03

hmm.

Ethan: 16:04

because yeah, I mean, because no, no technology is black and white. It exists in a broader social context and it does impact some people. It does benefit other people. And I think our question is about like maximizing the benefits while minimizing the harms whenever possible. And I think like right now. We don't really have a society that's, or we don't really have a way to sort of like effectively have that conversation. Um, you know, there's an example I cited at the end of the book about dock workers who, um, uh, who were unionized and basically we're sort of like facing this threat of containerization in the United States, which is a dramatically automated shipping and logistics process. And they were kind of like in this, um, uh, in the eighties, they were faced with having to adopt this system by the owners of the docks. But the other challenge they were having is that a bunch of international, um, or a bunch of other foreign countries were also going to be adopting containerization. So, like, the choice they had was to kind of, like, refuse the technology at wholesale, um, and then lose business effectively to other countries, or, um, adopt the technology and effectively put their entire union workforce. out of their jobs. Um, they, they, they did this wildly clever thing, which is they basically like fought for contract that was going to ensure that the unionized dock workers were going to get paid regardless of whether or not they worked. Um, basically like if there were impacts of the technology on the workforce, they were still going to profit from the technology. Um, and so that's just one example of a union contract that at least lets those workers Have a say over like what kind of impacts are going to be visited upon them and how they potentially profit from it. But, you know, that's not the only example of unions dealing with tech, uh, technological automation. Like there's a, again, like a long history. Um, and I, I, I mentioned a white paper that kind of covers it in some detail, but like, at least for me, um, a union gives workers a voice in saying how technology can be used. I mean, the WGA and SAG aren't looking to outlaw AI in Hollywood. They're trying to regulate it. Um, so like, chat GPT or other LLM tech from being used to write script treatments or pitches, for example. Like, maybe it can still be used in other parts of the editing process, you know, who knows? But, um, it's not, it's not an either or sort of like binary proposition of ban it or adopt it. It's like centering the people who will be impacted in that conversation. That's, that's what I find really heartening about unions as a mechanism for navigating some of these questions.

Joel: 18:47

hmm.

Ethan: 18:48

Does that make sense? Does that,

Joel: 18:49

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense? And there's, there's, um, a difference between, like, unions giving people a voice, and then people who have that voice knowing what they should be asking for. And I think that's a, that's a really interesting question, maybe, maybe going a bit too far, uh, from, from what your book covers, but, um, for me, like, that's, that's where I immediately jumped to. It's like, okay, so if we have this voice, what should we be asking for? And I think it kind of goes back to, like, when you get this new technology, the question is, like, who Does it benefit? And the answer is usually that it benefits very, very few people, and it should benefit everyone. And I guess, I guess having that, voice, uh, is, is the first step towards Like, the very complex procedure of, like, figuring out what you should be asking for, and like, what progress really looks like, uh, in a world

Ethan: 19:46

weren't recording this conversation, I'll be pounding my desk emphatically. Cause that's, that's a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah,

Joel: 19:51

Thanks.

Collin: 19:52

I don't think this is a question you'll be able to answer, but I know it's the question that I've thought a lot about with all these tech layoffs, and the WGA, and, uh, you know, and SAG. Is. I wish I could ask one of these CEOs, um, like, what kind of world do you want to create? Like, we've got all these little mini Jack Welches running around, trying to provide shareholder value. And, and, my thing is, I'm just like, do you, you know, like a thing came out where they said, we think the, you know, we think the WGA strike, we think it'll end when people start not being able to pay their mortgage, or start losing their apartments. I'm like. Why, like, do you want to create the most good for the most people, or do you just want to, uh, you know, be able, as I said before, just grind people into dust? Like, what, what goes on in somebody's brain like that? Um, maybe it's why I'm not Bob Iger, but, uh, I still, I wish I could get that answer.

Ethan: 20:53

man calling me too. Yeah,

Collin: 20:56

Yeah, sorry, there's a little bit of a tangent, but I've just been obsessed with it the last

Ethan: 21:00

no, there's a, there's a writer who I really like, Anne Helen Peterson, um, who's written a lot about like the, the tension in American society between, Individualism and collectivism, and I think we're seeing a lot of that play out right now in these strikes. Um, you know, folks who are thinking about, you know, the folks inside of their four walls in their house and their family, um, and folks who are actually recognizing that they need to literally stand together with folks, um, that they're working with to get something better in

Collin: 21:31

so do you feel like the past 12 to 18 months have been sort of an inflection point in tech where People are starting to realize, like, like I've said, I think a lot of white collar tech people maybe have not thought of themselves as labor in the past, and the way people have been treated, uh, you know, those 200, 000 layoffs, plus however many contractors and freelancers, You know, we're out there. It, I mean, if I go on LinkedIn, it is, it is bleak right now. Um, so I feel like people are pretty, pretty upset. Do you, do you feel like this is just an opportunity for this kind of line of thinking to pick up

Ethan: 22:13

Yeah, that's, that's a great question, Colin. I mean, I, I do think that the last year has been horrific, frankly. Um, so many people have lost their work and realized like just how much precarity there is in tech work. Um, and there were, there were very few guarantees. Um, and I think they're feeling that very sharply. So I do think that the idea of a union and like the path to a contract and hopefully getting some guarantees in place from where you work is something that's, I do think it's, it's gotten a lot. easier to have some of those conversations. And I, and I should make clear, and I make this clear in the book like, uh, I'm not a labor organizer. I'm basically self employed. Like this, this is all anecdotal. Um, but I do get the sense that from people that I've spoken with, like, it's a lot easier now to have some of those conversations. Um, but, but at the same time, like, I think tech's been going to, to use your phrase, like it's been going through an inflection point for the better part of the last decade where, you know, I mentioned this in the book, I think 2016 was a turning point for a lot of people who realized that. Um, tech, which was always sort of like positioning itself as like the shining city on the hill, you know, was producing work that could be used to harm people directly. And I think a lot of the activism that came out of that, um, created a foundation for the worker organizing that we're seeing today. And so I think like there is that, you know, again, we talked about history before. I do think that that, that inflection point has been going on for a while, thankfully, and, um, has kind of brought us to where we are today.

Collin: 23:46

I wonder if this year has really made people start to realize how much power they don't have in the way things are set up. You talk about in the book, like, there's planners and plannies, you know, I think it was something you picked up, uh, a quote, but kind of the idea that there are people who get to make the decisions, there are people who are impacted by the decisions, and I think there's a lot of tech people, maybe in the last year, year and a half, who've realized like they are on the plannee side of that. They're not a planner.

Ethan: 24:23

Yeah. I think that's right. I mean, I think there's, um, there's an incredible amount of sort of unacknowledged power in the tech industry. And I think folks are, like you said, aware of it now and keenly aware of it. Um, one thing I call it in the book, though, is that, you know, even if you like your job, you know, unionizing is something that is still valuable to you because it helps ensure that the things you like about your job are still going to be available to you. You know, I talked to some folks at, um, some civic tech organizations, for example, who were unionizing and, and they were very comfortable with their jobs. They liked their jobs, but at least for them, it was about hopefully getting a path to a contract where some of the things, some of the benefits they enjoyed, some of the things about their working conditions they enjoyed were, we're going to be guaranteed rather than just simply taken away from them. If, um, leadership changed or if market conditions changed, like, And I think that's the thing, it's like, regardless of your current relationship to tech work, having conversations with your co workers about the things you like, the things you don't like, the things you wish you could change, um, that I think is really, really powerful no matter, like, how satisfied or not satisfied you are with your work. Because, you know... It can help you. take a longer view. Like if you are at your job for another 10 years, um, what do you want that to look like?

Collin: 25:47

You bring up sort of two questions several times in the book that you just hit on, which are, what do you like about your job? And if you could, what would you change about your job? And that organizing gives you a path to affect that. And. Also, I thought that you mentioned basically the idea that a lot of times these a lot of times these things start, uh, once there's a crisis of some kind and that that is not the time to start.

Ethan: 26:16

Um, I talked to a handful of workers who started organizing in a time of crisis and we're, we're, we're successful in getting a union in place and getting recognized as a union. Um, there's a labor organizer and writer that I cite a few times in the books. Who's a, she's a big influence on me. Her name is Jane McAlevey. and she talks about this concept of a hot shop, you know, where there is that like flashpoint, like layoffs or. Massive change in benefits or, you know, there's some sort of like crisis event that happens. And if that's the point in which you then start having a conversation about organizing or unionizing and in her experience, she says it always fails. Organizing, at least as I've understood it from these conversations, from my own research, it's a much longer process, you know, it involves having conversations and building up power over time. Um, and trying to understand like, what are the things that are most valuable to your co workers, uh, to the folks that you're in your union with and then mobilizing them. It's not something that can be done in overnight or, uh, you know, over the course of a week. It's, it's something that really takes time and listening.

Collin: 27:24

Yeah. And part of the process is also that. A lot of times these companies are going to hire expensive consultants and just do the shadiest stuff to try and stop you. I think we've seen a lot of that with, like, people trying to organize in retail. You mentioned, I remember, uh, this immediately made me think of, uh, the Apple stores trying to unionize when you mentioned, like, captive meetings. Um, where they try and convince people not to unionize. Uh, just because labor laws in the United States, it's... It's extremely stacked against you It's extremely on the side of the, you know, the, the, uh, the business runners.

Ethan: 28:02

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, our, um, our sort of foundational labor law hasn't been updated in over a century. Um, and in fact, it's been whittled away at since that, since its passage, uh, through successive legislation, through the courts, through lobbying. Um, so we're left with a patchwork of laws that are very pro business, um, very pro employer. Um, you know, if you talk to anybody, uh, In most developed countries, uh, with a decent set of labor laws, and talk to them about the process of forming a union in the United States, they're going to look at you a little bit weird, um, but Um, but that said, I mean, like, there's an incredible amount of power that comes from unionizing, Um, you know, building. Thank you. Even just something as simple as, like, asking for changes At work. Um, the math changes pretty quickly when it's, you know, not two people asking for change, but twenty or two hundred. Um, you know, and so I think that there's a, there's a real strength in that solidarity. Um, and I think it's important to acknowledge.

Collin: 29:06

So, you focus a lot on larger companies and startups like Google or even like Kickstarter, things like that. At what size would somebody start thinking about this? Like if there's five engineers at your company, is this a thing to think about? Is it like 50, a hundred. Like, at what point does this start to make sense for people to be considering? Do you

Ethan: 29:27

man, that's a great question. Well, I mean, uh, I did title the book, You Deserve a Tech Union. Um, it's not most of you. Like I, I really, I, I, it's a great question, but I do, I do think that like, it's, it's worth having those conversations to see what the appetite is with your coworkers. Um, again, it comes down to that question of guarantees at work. And, um, the other thing too, is like I mentioned this in the book, there's this quote that really landed with me about a one organizer who talked to me sort of on background and basically said Described the process of forming a union at work as, um, sort of installing an engine for democracy at work. You know that this is something that's it's democratically governed the direction of the union. the things that you're lobbying for in your contract, like what actually goes into that contract, like these are all things that are put up to a vote. And you know, um, that to me, like, it sounds like a simple thing, but that's a dramatically different departure from how every other aspect of our relationship at work is kind of governed. And yeah, I think it's, it's, I think it's, really exciting. Yeah.

Collin: 30:32

you would not be surprised by how surprised Joel was when I first explained to him the concept of at will employment. Uh, uh, you know. I, I think what I say is, I'm like, yeah, I think they can fire you if they don't like your haircut, and it's like, you know, maybe that's not technically going with the labor laws, but like, what am I going to do, sue them? Like, I, I'm pretty much powerless there. So, so this is, this is the final thing that, that I had, but we can keep going. Um, do you think there's... So thinking about, like, the WGA, right, has got me thinking about this is that's, I think, mostly freelancers working in those kind of positions, or a lot of freelancers. Um, is there a way that freelancers can fit into this at all? Like, it seems, it seems like maybe it's dreaming too big, uh, to imagine, like, maybe there's some kind of, uh, you know, how you would have the critical mass. But the idea of like, there is a sort of standardized set of things that union freelancers are going to use, And there's enough critical mass, maybe people would have to start agreeing with it. Is that, have you thought about that at all?

Ethan: 31:43

Um, I haven't, I mean the, it's, it's a, it's a fantastic question. I mean, there are, there are, at least in the United States, there are some like freelance unions. Um, there's one that I saw recently, I think it's called the freelance solidarity project primarily, I think for creative professionals and knowledge workers. But, um, the reason I wanted to focus my book on forming majority unions in a workplace is because of that path to a contract, you know, that path, like actual, like power in the workplace,

Collin: 32:12

Mm hmm.

Ethan: 32:13

but You know, and I say this in the book too, I mean, I think our challenges are so great. We need a lot of solutions. And I think if freelancer groups can, you know, evolve into a place where they've got some real trade power, um, or some real industry based power, I would love to see that.

Collin: 32:30

Yeah, and I mean, it's it's difficult because, I mean, it's very different also than like, the situation the WGA or SAG is in. because they're dealing with like, a few studios that they have to negotiate with and uh... in the producers union, I forget what they're called, um, but, you know, so that's very different. I was just thinking about it because I am doing freelancing, and I know you're doing freelancing, and... Just how this can apply to everyone. Um, so, I don't know, is there anything we're missing here that you'd really like to hit on? That was kind of the end of my questions, but I don't want to leave anything out that you think is important.

Ethan: 33:07

no, I, mean, this, uh, you know, between the two of you, uh, at the table, like, this is, this has been a fantastic chat. Um, like, the questions have been, like, really high bar. Um, I hope, uh, yeah, I can't think of anything else I'd want to add. This has been really great.

Collin: 33:21

I have one thing I'd like to add. I have one thing I'd like you to add, actually, which is, What would you like people, what are you hoping people will take away from this book?

Ethan: 33:30

I think, I really... hope this book is just the first step that they take. Um, I hope that the people who read it understand that they're tech workers, but understand that the journey just starts here. that. There's part of a larger process and I hope it excites them to get started forming a union in their workplaces. Um, so there's a bunch of resources in the book to help them get started, but this really does require us, I think collectively as an industry and collectively as workers to kind of stand up and figure out how we can exercise our power and work, um, as workers.

Collin: 34:05

Yeah, you list, I think four books at the end that were very influential for you, do you think those are a good place for people to go if they're interested in learning more?

Ethan: 34:15

Yeah, absolutely. Um, the other thing I'll toss out, which is a free resources labor notes, um, which is, an amazing, you know, worker led, uh, publication. Um, it's, uh, it's a fairly cheap annual subscription to get sort of up to date missives on the labor movement in the United States. But they also offer a ton of free training and resources. so you know, if you're interested in organizing your workplace, um, you do really well to start with their free training. They're very, very, good.

Collin: 34:42

Well, I think it's a fantastic book. I'd recommend everyone read it. Um, I, yeah, I can't recommend it highly enough. It's really got me thinking about all this stuff, which I think was your goal.

Joel: 34:54

It's really timely, I think.

Collin: 34:56

so

Joel: 34:57

Right?

Ethan: 34:57

Yeah, thanks Joel. I wish it wasn't timely, but I think it is. Ha ha.

Collin: 35:02

So, uh, where, where can people find you? What would you like to point them to? That

Ethan: 35:06

thanks. Best place to find me is on my website, EthanMarcott. com. Um, yeah, and I've got a couple social media links there, but uh, yeah, it's, this has been a real honor. Thank you for having me on the show, both of You

Collin: 35:18

You know, it's, it's been a real honor to have you. I was really excited about this and I think it's gonna be, I think it's just as good as I hoped it would be. I'm really, really pleased. Uh, so, as always, if you like the show, um, please hit the star, on Overcast or like us or buy a star from the, uh, star buying thing from, uh, the, the, the infomercial, um, and name it after us. And we will see you next week.